Thursday, February 3, 2011

J'accuse!

I accuse my friend, John Stegeman of hypocrisy, heinous duplicity and deliberate deception. I condemn him to living death, and eternal hunger for living blood.

To make a long background story short, John learned something about himself. He learned that his faith in God is paramount, it stands alone. No matter what raw experience life can or will throw his way, or the logical implications of those experiences, John will view them as tests of faith only. Faith is his one essential thing, the rock of his life, around which all other experience revolves, and against which all is to be judged.

That seems reckless and disturbing to me, but that's really beside the point. This isn't about me. The point is that reason is not an equal to faith. It's worth is not absolute, it's a transitory thing. While useful in everyday situations that don't conflict with faith, it is just gravy. If it jives with faith, then goodie goodie. If in conflict, then it is a thing to be endured, not considered.

However, I submit these statements where John seems to augment faith or faith-based positions with reason:

"To be able to hold fast and strong to beliefs can be admirable, but to cling to a belief you desperately want to be true is weak."

"The issue with your argument is that you are making yourself the judge of whether a life is acceptable or worthy. " [on abortion, about which the Catholic Church has a pretty strong opinion]
 
"I also oppose contraceptives and am against premarital sex but I don't impose that on anyone as engaging in those things are only sinful (again from my beliefs) to the individuals whereas abortion is killing an innocent person"

And the most damning...
 
"Faith and reason aren't opposing things. They are intertwined. God's word and world are revealed better to us with reason."
 
No! Absolutely not, and by your own admission! Reason does not have something to say about God's word. God's word has something to say about reason! As Alex said in a comment, if you serve God because it is logical, then logic is your God, and not the Lord. Not just that but if your faith is enhanced by logic, then it is not faith that you've gained but only logic.
 
What purpose is there for you to argue about matters like abortion where your faith has already decisively and irrevocably judged? When people debate in good faith, they are putting an ante on the table. That being the possibility that they could be swayed, given a persuasive enough argument. You are incapable of that kind of risk in matters relevant to faith. No argument could ever really sway you, not significantly. You risk nothing, other than your time. Isn't that deceptive?
 
If reason is something that can only add to faith, not subtract from it, then you are playing with a loaded deck. If you win, then hooray! Your reason was the most sound, collect your reward! If you lose, then the contest never really mattered because "It's my belief" and the rest of us must respect that. Stalemate.
 
Is it fair to sit in an unassailable eagle's nest of faith, while you look down and use logic to snipe at the arguments of others? Is it sportsmanlike? Does it require any virtue or character, like courage or determination? No. It's essentially hunting a caged animal. A tame killing where spectators can sit back and admire the style. A lot of sound and fury, it signifies nothing.
 
Intended or unintended, malice or no, the effect is the same. Bad Truthsmanship. I read it. I understood it. I condemn it.
 
Maybe you consider those quotes to be "water under the bridge" since, after all, you've learned something new about the nature of your faith. I can happily accept that. But be honest, and state matters of faith as just that. Just the simple fact. You were playing a double game. But I squeezed you, I hammered you until you chose your side. You have made your choices, sir! You make yourself comfortable with that...

24 comments:

  1. John hasn't commented yet? How peculiar.

    Anyway, though I agree with you for the most part, I must say one thing on behalf of John. There are times where John has truly allowed reason to triumph over his faith. For example, it is no small secret that the Catholic Church is vehemently anti-contraceptive (to quote Christopher Hitchens when he mocks the stance of the Church, "AIDS is bad, but condoms are even worse"). Nevertheless, John has come to agree that education on the use, and even application of contraceptives is justifiable.

    ReplyDelete
  2. I affirmed faith over reason, that is not the same as dismissing reason. I have faith, not all the answers.

    That's why reason is so important in conjunction with faith to help sift through everything.

    Reason without faith isn't void of good, but it fails more often than not to consider the divine.

    I found something Pope Benedict said on the matter that explains what I'm trying to say.

    "According to the thought of St. Thomas Aquinas, human reason, to say it as such, 'breathes,' that is, it moves on a wide-open horizon in which it can experience the best of itself. Nonetheless, when man limits himself to think only of material and experimental objects, he closes himself to the questions of life, about himself and about God, impoverishing himself." -- Benedict XVI, Feast of Thomas Aquinas, January 28, 2007

    Faith without reason, while riskier and possibly even irresponsible, can still lead to salvation.

    God never said understand me and my world, but believe in me.

    I don't serve God because it is logical (though to me it is logical to serve such a being) but because I believe in him.

    I want to get more into this but I'm at work. Even the Bible though talks about this.

    "but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;"

    Without reason, how could one do that?

    ReplyDelete
  3. Naturally, I don't have a problem with you using reason in secular matters (burger king or taco bell; should I count my cats as a tax deduction; why would someone drop a duke in the urinal; etc). I'm talking specifically about binding reason in with matters where your faith clearly dictates the appropriate position.

    You're not a deist. You're not starting from a very simple creed and branching outward. Your church is a proxy for Christ, and your church has some very specific things to say about some matters. That carries an obligation, does it not? I speak for reason, since it also carries obligations with it.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Was that a response to what I wrote or an additional point?

    Also let's get hypothetical.

    If by use of your reason (trial and error, getting recommendations etc.) you found a website that was the foremost authority on computer programming. After checking it out for a while you found that while sometimes wrong about tertiary things, it was never wrong about matters of programming.

    Would it be contrary to reason to trust that site in the future?

    NOW THIS IS DIFFERENT OF COURSE, because I didn't come to the Church on reason alone. My belief in God likely didn't come from reason but as a Christian, my faith in the Church did.

    I looked about, did some research, mostly some thinking, a little praying and chose to remain Catholic because it makes the most sense.

    So while I'm not a deist, my faith got me to theism and to Christianity, which is why I cannot make super great arguments for them. My reason, and I like to think with the assistance of faith, led me to remain Catholic.

    Hopefully this makes some kind of sense. I dunno. I gotta go write my own blog for the day.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Also I stand by what you call my most damning statement. God's word and world are revealed better to us with reason.

    Note I didn't say by reason alone. Faith is enough, faith with reason can bring a better understanding and benefit a person in many ways.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Reason CAN bring a better understanding of faith. You cannot count on reason to ALWAYS supplement faith. That's my point. It is necessary for you to restrain your reason in favor of faith, in rare occasions at the very least. You use reason when it's convenient to, when your faith allows you.

    You're saying "It's useful so often!"
    I'm saying "Yeah, but when it's not, you ditch it"

    Reason is something supplimentary to you. It has no negative repercussions to your core worldview because you are locked into it with faith. You've domesticated it, you've castrated it. It's a shadow of what it should be.

    ReplyDelete
  7. If reason is (to you) shown to be unreliable some of the time, then how can you be sure it's reliable any of the time? That's what I'm saying.

    ReplyDelete
  8. yeah I get it. Reason is not my God. You don't like that and think that it should be...what are we discussing?

    I got lost.

    ReplyDelete
  9. You just don't want to put the effort in to think about it. What bothers you about all of this is that you're being scrutinized, not the substance of what's being said. You'd rather be left alone of it. But you're not the kind of person who tries to keep to himself about these things, and never ponders deep thoughts. You brazenly ponder, but your boldness doesn't seem to get you into much trouble for it.

    I'm bothered because you routinely take a shit on the face of reason. And when I try to tell you that you just took a shit on the face of reason you say "No I didn't, I just blew it a kiss." And then after your done repeatedly shitting on reason, you march it in front of us and say "everybody put your hands together for reason! Yay! Yay! Yay!" And we applaud.

    ReplyDelete
  10. It does bother me that I'm being scrutinized and I don't think it is unreasonable for me to be bothered. What I don't understand I suppose is why aesthetics ranks higher that letting a friend have their beliefs.

    I didn't come to this by whimsy and while I admit a predisposition to the Church via my upbringing, I considered things carefully.

    My belief in God involves personal experience which I think we can all agree is not a transferable argument so there isn't much I can do here.

    I've been reconsidering some of the things I have said. I am beginning to think that reason can be used to show God's existence. I'm not saying it would go to the beyond a shadow of a doubt level. Also, I can't yet get a reason-link between theism and Christianity as the right way.

    I ponder all the time. I have doubts. I am human.

    I still need to answer your question on how I can trust reason...I will eventually.

    ReplyDelete
  11. I have stated this many times in the course of this conversation, but apparently I wasn't clear enough so I'll say it again: I do not care about your faith. What I care about is your duplicity in using reason, arguing about matters which are already decided to you. That is my challenge to you.

    You are playing a double game in your mind by pretending that your faith can be shaped by reason, when you know that's not the case. That's a disservice not just to your readers, but to you, your faith and, yes, aesthetics.

    Those of us that know you know that you take your faith pretty seriously, and that you could be fairly called a devout man. Now, how do you feel about people who only act religious when it's convenient? Who repent on their deathbeds after a life of horrible behavior? Who show up at church only when their chips are down and contribute nothing overall to the church? People who disrespect God by taking without giving? Who use the idea of God as a convenience, instead of something to be revered and held up as sacred?

    That's how I feel about what you're doing when you engage in these farcical "debates". You risk nothing because you can pick and choose which influence you're going to take seriously at any given moment.

    And now you can't stop beating your breast about how you're being wronged, simply because I'm calling you out on it.

    If you were the average Christian, like the guys I work with, who just straight up don't want to be challenged about religious stuff because they don't like feeling uncomfortable about it, I never would have bothered. But you're not that kind of guy. You're boldly walking into the center and announcing yourself as a seeker after truth and an enemy of relativism, etc. So, I don't think it's unreasonable to demand that you explain yourself.

    ReplyDelete
  12. I think I have explained myself, just not to your satisfaction.

    You are right that but it's in the sense that I have a safety net. I think what you're missing is that I do not consider that considering God is in anyway unreasonable.

    Yeah I'm a doubter sometimes but I really believe God is real, the Bible is from him and the Church is the bearer of his faith.

    If that is so, then considering God in conjunction with reason only makes sense. If that is so, denying God's involvement etc. is actually an affront to truth.

    I admit completely that I can't prove if it is so. I admit that I sometimes wonder if it is but when I press myself, I really believe it.

    Your analogy helps me understand your point and I see why it bugs you.

    I guess I can best explain it like this. Reason can get you a lot of places and is useful in conjunction with faith. In the event that reason would truly contradict faith, yes, I choose faith.

    From a non-Christian viewpoint, I completely recognize the duplicity of this. I do. But from the Christian viewpoint, it's really the reasonable choice.

    What it comes down to is that I am either full of shit and God doesn't exist and you are 100 percent right, or I am right to think this way because I am following the will of an omnipotent being who at one point decided the very nature of reason at all.

    Problem is I don't think we can prove either point.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Yeah, that's a little slippery of you. I don't believe this really boils down to a metaphysical impasse (is there a God or is there not), but I am beginning to believe that you are deliberately trying to blur the issue for the sake bringing it to a speedy conclusion.

    Whether God really exists or not doesn't change the argument. Let me give an example.

    1. You believe in a God who is opposed to abortion, therefore you are opposed to abortion.
    2. You use logical arguments to shore up your position on abortion, even though it's really a matter of your belief, and you know logical arguments aren't always 100% assured to justify your beliefs.
    3. God then reveals himself in broad daylight to everyone, thus proving his existence.

    How does step 3 change whether your decision to use reason as an auxiliary was right or wrong? Your belief turned out to justified, but your methods were still shady regardless.

    I'm not really opposed to you using reason as your method when faith has nothing to say about a particular matter. People do that constantly, since faith doesn't have enough to say to guide a person in all decisions.

    What I am opposed to is your apparent need to JUSTIFY your beliefs. Beliefs don't need rational justification. That's why they're beliefs. Faith is necessarily irrational, it's faith. And that's... OK.

    What I'm not OK with is the possibility that, while searching your mind for an argument to justify one of your positions, you accidentally think up one that contradicts it. Naturally, you'd sweep that notion under the rug pretty quick, right? You would probably think to yourself "My understanding of this issue is imperfect, and I came up with a flawed idea that contradicted a god-given truth", then you would keep searching for an argument that supports your position. But when you come up with a supporting argument, you don't scrutinize it the same way, do you? You don't bury your imperfect perceptions of the issue if they happen to support your position.

    Do you see why, regardless of the position of the viewer, this is objectively wrong?

    ReplyDelete
  14. I'm a little slow here and just realized that this argument is much older than a few weeks between us.

    Also you give me too much credit. I am not deliberately trying to blur anything, I'm just a bit blurry in the head lately.

    So you are saying my methods are flawed. Is this because they are not founded in reason in the first place?

    I agree they are not. Speaking at least for me, my belief in God is such that I consider trying to follow his will as strongly as anything I learned from reason.

    With abortion, it really is a matter of belief that founds my views. I do shore it up with reasonable arguments but they are mostly based also on my belief.

    If God showed up tomorrow and went "Hey world, this dude is right and oh yeah I exist," I would be correct and justified and if I have any understanding of God I think he would be pleased.

    If he exists, then my belief in this fashion serves a higher good than reason and outranks sound secular methodology.

    As for justification of my beliefs, yeah that would be nice.

    I think atheism believes that as science and technology progresses we will get all the answers that theism relies on God for.

    On the flip side I believe that as we progress we will eventually find more reasons to believe in God.

    Neither of us is likely to live to see a conclusion to this and it's really doubtful there will be one.

    My belief is rationally justified, but only to me. I remember writing a paper for Meriwheter on "The Justification of faith based on personal experience" or something like that.

    It was simple. I believe myself to be of sound mind (at least I was when I came to belief) and I believed my senses trustworthy. I experienced what I believe to be a sense of God's presence.

    I considered the crazy factor, I considered that maybe I just really wanted it to be true and I decided that it was true.

    This personally justifies me but in no way obliges anyone else.

    On the last point. Well said and there is truth there. When I find a supporting point, I don't give it the same scrutiny.

    On the other hand I have not come to any ideas (that come to mind now) that do require me to sweep it under the rug in the manner you describe.

    Would I? Probably.

    But the point still is the metaphysical impasse. Doing things my way is right, just and correct if the Christian God exists. In this case, I am using reason exactly as God intended.

    If he doesn't then I am in fact bastardizing reason and am nothing more than a wishful thinking loon.

    ReplyDelete
  15. "If God showed up tomorrow and went "Hey world, this dude is right and oh yeah I exist," I would be correct and justified and if I have any understanding of God I think he would be pleased.

    If he exists, then my belief in this fashion serves a higher good than reason and outranks sound secular methodology."

    THEN WHY USE IT?

    Let me also say that I can see what you're driving at when you say that this all boils down to whether God really exists or not. You're saying that is God really exists, then all the physical world is a true reflection of Him, including the laws of reason and nature, so reason could never conflict with him or his word, which is manifest in your personal belief. Ipso facto - truly sound reason CAN'T conflict with your belief.

    I get that. And it honestly scares the living shit out of me. Maybe you haven't considered the consequences of that idea, but that's the kind of thing that religious bombers operate under. Belief translates to reason translates to action, with no external check on it. Once a person makes such a connection, there's no argument to talk them down, since anything that contradicts the belief must be falsehood, and God will justify them no matter what.

    ReplyDelete
  16. And that's precisely why faith abused or misunderstood or flat our wrong is so dangerous. It's also why we need reason with faith or we end up bombing clinics or school buses.

    With reason though one can read "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" but before killing Jarred they remember "Thou Shall not Kill."

    We're bordering on semantics here. I'm saying this, you're saying that but there is a difference.

    I do not believe that sound reason would ever truly conflict with God in the sense we're talking about. I do believe reasonable people can choose not to believe and that the faithful can use reason to justify sin etc.

    Reason (and historical fact) tells me the Jews were never in Egypt, I buy that even though the Bible says they were there. That whole bit could be a parable, I dunno.

    Damnit I lost my train of thought here...and break is over. I'll get back to it later.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Buh.. The Jews weren't in Egypt?

    ReplyDelete
  18. You keep repeatedly contradicting yourself within the span of your own posts.

    Whatever, you're right. This is disintegrating and turning into a lot of semantics.

    Let me restate and I'll leave it alone:

    I have no authority or leverage over you to make you do anything so I'm not going to say "don't do XYZ".

    What I will say is that if you make a secular argument to justify a position that I know you hold because of faith, I'm going to call you out as a hypocrite for it. I'll have a clean conscience about that, since I'm fairly sure that I'm correct, and you haven't convinced me otherwise.

    ReplyDelete
  19. So in any of those matters I should just say "Cause God said so?" and you'd prefer that?

    ReplyDelete
  20. Dungy, you're going to end up turning John into a zealot. Granted, most of John's beliefs are grounded in his faith, but at least he gives secular reasoning the old college try. I know you see this as being dishonest, but at least he has the desire to comprehend and attempt to incorporate the secular viewpoint. This is more than what most theists would bother with.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Drink deep, or taste not the plasma spring.

    I'm not just talking about sex and penetration. I'm talking about penetration beyond the VEIL OF THE FLESH. A deep, penetrating dive. Into the plasma pool.

    ReplyDelete